[00:00:00] Lori Massicot: Hey there, welcome to 250 and beyond. I am Laurie Massicot. I am your host today and I'm the midlife sobriety coach and founder of Team Alcohol Free, a wonderful online community for women 35 and over who are working together to create and explore an alcohol free lifestyle. TAF is for you, if you are curious about going alcohol free, you're already living that lifestyle like myself, and you could use some guidance, some direction, and then also the support system.

[00:00:28] Lori Massicot: That support system that we need in early sobriety and beyond, which we're talking about today. is essential to enjoying ourselves without drinking. Go and check out TAF in the link in the show notes. Enrollment is closing very soon. I'm closing it up until either the end of 2023 or the beginning of 2024.

[00:00:47] Lori Massicot: You're not going to want to miss out, especially if you are somebody who really could use that extra support during the holidays, which we are coming up upon. Go and check it out. I am talking today with one of my favorite [00:01:00] people, my cool and creative friend, Sondra Primo is here to co host a conversation about early sobriety and beyond, because I love everything about Sondra in short, and also because she is a gal who chose to stop drinking at 45, we share some similarities and what we were going through, which led to sobriety, which you will hear about today.

[00:01:18] Lori Massicot: Sondra is a writer. She is a creator. She's a photographer. She is a reuse designer and maker for over 20 years. And she is the co host of the Unruffled podcast. This is a phenomenal resource for women in recovery. Today, we're diving into some really cool topics, talking about acceptance of when we realized in early sobriety, when drinking was no longer an option and how we accepted that for ourselves.

[00:01:42] Lori Massicot: Talk about relationships and the changes that we faced and then beyond that first year. And then we talk about how we manage long term sobriety post menopause, because that's where we're both at. I know you're going to appreciate this episode. Let's get this party started.

[00:01:58] Sondra Primeaux: Hi, Sondra. [00:02:00] Hello. I'm so happy to talk to you this

[00:02:03] Lori Massicot: morning.

[00:02:05] Lori Massicot: I love talking to you. You are on the podcast now. This is your fourth time to 50 and

[00:02:10] Sondra Primeaux: beyond. Oh my gosh, that's, I was trying, I knew I'd obviously been here before, but I didn't have an accurate count in my head.

[00:02:19] Lori Massicot: You were my first. You will always hold that special spot in my heart. You are my first interview.

[00:02:28] Lori Massicot: Oh,

[00:02:30] Sondra Primeaux: my gosh. Aww. Aww. I know. It's a special day

[00:02:32] Lori Massicot: all around. It's a special day. And you know what? And you're my, really my first co host interview because I'm hosting this conversation with friends like I just said to you throughout September and then you're going to be in October and this is our first time co hosting really together.

[00:02:48] Lori Massicot: Normally it's me interviewing you. So we're going to be co hosts. How

[00:02:52] Sondra Primeaux: do you feel about that? I don't know if I'll be able to tell the difference, but I'm the favorite.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Lori Massicot: That's very interesting. Yeah. Because you co hosted for, you co hosted for how long with The Unruffled. Talk about that. So

[00:03:07] Sondra Primeaux: I had a podcast called The Unruffled and I co hosted that with my friend, Tammy Solis, and we did it for four years. And we were on almost every episode. We were on the mics together and sometimes it was just the two of us and we would have a conversation.

[00:03:26] Sondra Primeaux: Sometimes we had an outline, sometimes not. And then we would also invite guests where we would then ask more formal questions and that kind of thing. Yeah. I loved it.

[00:03:38] Lori Massicot: I love your podcast. And it's still there.

[00:03:40] Sondra Primeaux: It's still there. It's archived and still available.

[00:03:44] Lori Massicot: Yeah. I'm going to link that in the show notes.

[00:03:46] Lori Massicot: It's

[00:03:46] Sondra Primeaux: on Apple. And it's on SoundCloud. We never put it up on Spotify and now Stitcher is going away, but you can find it on Apple. Most people have iPhones, but if you have an Android, it's on SoundCloud [00:04:00] still.

[00:04:02] Lori Massicot: It's awesome. And you actually gave me the idea because I co hosted with you. I think Tammy was taking a month off or something.

[00:04:09] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, we did a summer where we each took a break. And we had our, had, uh, co hosts and yes, you came on as my co

[00:04:17] Lori Massicot: hosts. Yeah. And so that was that first click in my brain. Oh, that'd be really cool to do someday. And now we're doing it. I think it's two or three years later.

[00:04:26] Sondra Primeaux: Hello. Welcome. So let's talk about ideas to germinate for me,

[00:04:31] Lori Massicot: for sure.

[00:04:31] Lori Massicot: For me, for sure. We're going to talk about really life after that first year of sobriety and really maintaining it and what you're doing and what I'm doing and how that works now. I think life is just so different and it's a gift and I've done a lot of reflection today for sure in this past week just on getting to the point where I never thought I would be and I know you just celebrated nine years

[00:04:55] Sondra Primeaux: of sobriety celebrated nine years and you are celebrating.

[00:04:59] Sondra Primeaux: Today, [00:05:00] as we are recording this.

[00:05:01] Lori Massicot: Ten years. It's so funny, and I want to talk to you about your sober date. But I was thinking about this morning as I was going through our final, like, outline for this episode, and I was thinking, I wonder, we're a year apart, I wonder what was going on in our lives. We're close to the same age, there's a lot of similarities, and where I was when you were starting out, I was just a little bit ahead, but I was still at that point where it was like, oh gosh.

[00:05:28] Lori Massicot: I don't know, like going back and forth. And I do want to talk about that a little bit coming up on the one year.

[00:05:34] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, I would love to talk about that. I have one analogy that I just came up with. I don't know, a few months ago, my friend, Holly Whitaker, who wrote the book called Quit Like a Woman, she was on Instagram and she asked a question, she did that thing on her stories where you can ask a question, and she asked, Uh, if you had five years of sobriety [00:06:00] plus or more, how is it now versus when you first got sober?

[00:06:04] Sondra Primeaux: How is it different? And I, on the fly, I came up with this sort of water analogy. And for me in the beginning, and I'm sure it is for you and was for you and for anyone who's listening to this, you can probably relate, but the first few years, it feels like you're barely treading water. And then in the middle, and that's different for everyone, but after you have a couple of years where you know, aren't treading water, you eventually start to swim and you feel confident in your swimming ability.

[00:06:42] Sondra Primeaux: And then I said, I'm hoping that 10 plus years, I'll just be a mermaid.

[00:06:51] Lori Massicot: I love it. I can feel that analogy, like it's totally like swimming against the current and then again, like, there's so much [00:07:00] resistance. There's so much, you know, that you're up against. And then I feel like you just break through at some point. And I do want to ask you when it's, if you remember when it clicked for you, but first I want you to share your sober date.

[00:07:14] Sondra Primeaux: Okay. It's July 13th, 2014 and I was 45 when I quit drinking. And that's hard to say when it clicked because some days it clicked and then some days nothing was clicking. It's hard to And there was definitely, you don't really move from one island to another. You, it's not so clear cut like that. Um, so I really can't give, uh, an exact date.

[00:07:49] Sondra Primeaux: I will say, and only, and I only just remembered this because I was talking to a friend of mine who was very nearly sober. And I said, I can't tell you when this is going to happen. But one [00:08:00] day. You're going to get to the very end of your day and you're going to think to yourself, Oh my God, I didn't think about it at all today.

[00:08:08] Sondra Primeaux: I went through a whole entire day without thinking about it. Oh my God, feels like a miracle. And so maybe that's when you start, because the very next day, you might not have that kind of day. You may go back and forth, but after some time, you'll start to rack up several days where you don't think about alcohol or whatever your drug of choice was.

[00:08:32] Sondra Primeaux: What about

[00:08:32] Lori Massicot: you? Exactly. That was it. I honestly can't think of that day, but there was that day and I think that's giving so much hope to anybody out there who's listening to this thinking that they're treading the water, they're not there yet. And it was just that day where it was almost just like this realization, maybe even the next day.

[00:08:51] Lori Massicot: Did I even think about it yesterday? So many of us out there include, I'm sure you too, it was the outcome of this whole thing was, I want to [00:09:00] stop thinking about drinking so much when I'm trying not to drink, right? It's, that was brutal for me. I used to write it in my journal, like, this is brutal. When am I ever going to stop thinking about it?

[00:09:09] Lori Massicot: And yeah, I want to say it was definitely after the first year, I think that I realized that because I think I was reaching, even though I hadn't set out, I really started out on I'm done, I'm taking it off the table, I'm going to do whatever it takes to not drink again. And so there wasn't like, I'm going to do 30 days or I'm going to do a year.

[00:09:28] Lori Massicot: So even when I hit that year milestone, there really was like, you're going to keep going now. Yeah, I think that first year though, for me, it was just a lot of treading, a lot of resistance. Because I was starting to see glimmers of, Oh, you're feeling really good and you're doing better. And that was really hard for me to accept because I had just made my life really hard.

[00:09:48] Lori Massicot: For

[00:09:48] Sondra Primeaux: a really long time. Oh, I get that. Yeah. Because accepting that you're feeling better meant that you really did have a problem. Rue

[00:09:58] Lori Massicot: to that. That's [00:10:00] such a big, and it's so funny that you said that because the next little question I have here on, and I have several of them, did you accept that you could no longer drink at the time that you quit drinking?

[00:10:10] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. I think that was the case for me too, because I felt so much better pretty quickly. I agree. A, it did a couple of things. A, it gave me some momentum and incentive to keep going, but B, it made it more real. Oh yeah, sister, you're not, your cup of coffee isn't like sloshing out of your hand, out of the cup every morning because you've got the shakes.

[00:10:37] Sondra Primeaux: Things like apparent physical things, physical differences, very measurable, tangible changes. Yeah. Or the better. That acceptance. You know, really solidified the deal. And like they say, after a while, too much. Yes, there's people slip, they have relapses, [00:11:00] but you can't have an unexamined relapse anymore because you know too much.

[00:11:08] Sondra Primeaux: I

[00:11:08] Lori Massicot: like that. It's so true. If we're able to let ourselves learn and really start asking ourselves some better questions maybe and get to the point like where you're like acknowledging the fact that yes, that those symptoms of the shaking and those are gone. And then I feel like we find acceptance about our drinking and who we are later.

[00:11:29] Lori Massicot: Like I really wasn't accepting the fact that I had as big of a problem as I did when I stopped drinking. I think that came later, but it came within the first 90 days for sure. Like now I know now because I can see the differences and I know both you and I were going through perimenopause. We were both 45 too.

[00:11:47] Lori Massicot: I know. Yeah. Um, I was reading your blog this past week where you wrote about your nine year sober bursary and you sent it out to your newsletter that day. And I really loved [00:12:00] what you wrote in the beginning when you were so full of questions. Can you read

[00:12:03] Sondra Primeaux: that to us? Yeah, I wrote, Time can be stingy with her insight.

[00:12:07] Sondra Primeaux: I was so full of questions in the beginning. I wanted to know why did I do that? Why was I made this way? Why did it take me so long to quit? Why? The time in her ever omniscient wisdom has only answered a few of those questions, and the bulk of the story is still developing.

[00:12:26] Lori Massicot: I loved hearing that because we expect to have all of these answers in the beginning.

[00:12:31] Lori Massicot: We expect to have it figured out. We have to accept it before we can start. And that's it. I had all of those questions and I know that there's so many women out there and just folks in general listening to this episode saying, yeah, that's, those are the questions that I'm asking myself when I think that the forgiveness comes later, the answers come later, but you're still unraveling it all at nine years sober and that's how I feel too.

[00:12:58] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, I [00:13:00] think whether you, you can do 12 step or not, you can be in therapy or not, you can be a journal or not, but. Just like they say that it's an onion, you peel back layer by layer. It really, and I think it's made that way by design. If you saw everything all at, everything everywhere, all at once, it would might too much or too depressing or too regretful, shameful.

[00:13:25] Sondra Primeaux: So it's, I think that it's, it's a con. It's still in process. It's still in process. Nine years later, it's still in process. I still don't know why. And as I talked about more in that blog post, a lot of it was really fun. And we talk about that all the time. There were many years that it. Was super fun and it, and then there were also other times where drinking served me in other ways.

[00:13:54] Sondra Primeaux: It maybe saved me from, I don't know, depression or trying to cope [00:14:00] in other ways. It's a tool we use to cope, to navigate and tolerate things that are intolerable. Mm-hmm. . So when you remove that, that coping strategy, then you have to start looking at all the little things that were driving you to numb out all the things that you were avoiding, and you can't look at 'em all at once.

[00:14:37] Sondra Primeaux: It takes a lot of time, still, it's still happening. However, as time goes by, you get to look at it with a lot more clarity. You're not constantly having to address urges. Anymore, and so you get to, you have a lot more [00:15:00] time and space to, to work on those things and negotiate with all of those consequences or just things in your life that, that, that make you want to.

[00:15:15] Sondra Primeaux: And then other things pop up, workaholism, for

[00:15:18] Lori Massicot: one. Is that what you went into? Did you think, do you think? Um, I

[00:15:23] Sondra Primeaux: think I have been in overdrive since, uh, I quit drinking. I say all, I say this all the time, I feel like I've been making up for lost time. I, I was always a girl with big dreams. And I, drinking takes up a lot of time, I think, I didn't get to work on those.

[00:15:46] Lori Massicot: It's such a good point to think about the last time, because that's where we look at the regret and like you're questioning, why did I do that? Why for me, it was like, why didn't I see this sooner? I remember asking myself that [00:16:00] question so often. And so I do feel like the past 10 years have been me making up for lost time.

[00:16:07] Lori Massicot: And I would say, especially the last five years, it's been in overdrive. And so I'm totally there as well. And I was thinking back today. So I started drinking at 14, um, now I'm 10 years sober. I'm 55. Let's do the math. Uh, so really 24 years. Maybe 24, 25 ish years spent without drinking. Yeah. So the majority of my life has been with drinking.

[00:16:36] Lori Massicot: That gets hard when I think about it like that. It does, because I was a very consistent drinker and I've talked about it my decades. Like I started drinking when I was a teenager. My twenties were fun. Like you said, I have fun. I don't regret a lot in my twenties. After like my early thirties, after having spent like getting married, all of that shifted, there was definitely, I know some depression going on late thirties.

[00:16:59] Lori Massicot: I [00:17:00] started getting into that pre perimenopause, even though I didn't know it. And then definitely going into my forties, early forties, losing my mom so quickly to cancer and then going through perimenopause, which you also write in this blog and I'm going to link it so everybody can go and read it because it's just, it's the, it was the truth.

[00:17:16] Lori Massicot: Like I was fighting my body, I was changing, but I wasn't changing anything that I was doing for myself. And so at 45, yeah, it was just like, what's the end game here. Are you going to keep going doing this or are you going to stop? And after that, it was very much like that, those aha moments, definitely at 90 days.

[00:17:35] Lori Massicot: I do remember my husband saying, you, you can't go back because we saw the difference. Yeah, and there was a big difference and it was just like, shoot, it's like you come out of this, even though, and this is not an excuse. It was the truth. I wasn't drinking every day towards the end. I was very much a binge drinker on the weekends, but I was taking out a good three days out of the week being hung over and foggy and [00:18:00] coming down off of it.

[00:18:01] Lori Massicot: And so, I kept thinking to myself, it was just like this fog that I was coming out of. It was just so confusing to me. Like, why did I keep doing this for so long? Why didn't I see how bad it had gotten? But you can't see it when you're drinking.

[00:18:16] Sondra Primeaux: No, not at all. And it's all you can do to just. Yeah, make it through the next day and you're just in survival mode, or at least I was.

[00:18:28] Sondra Primeaux: And I always say I wasn't, I really wasn't even a high functioning alcoholic. I wasn't, I functioned, I had a job and I parented, but I would never say I was high functioning and I was getting by. I was just getting by. So yeah, so that doesn't leave a lot of room for being a great parent or being a great partner or being a, or working on my dream career or [00:19:00] anything, but it doesn't leave any time for that because the rest of the time was nursing hangovers, ramping up for the next thing and, and just the constant

[00:19:12] Lori Massicot: cycle of that.

[00:19:14] Lori Massicot: Definitely. Do you think it was a good decision for you to stop drinking?

[00:19:18] Sondra Primeaux: Oh my God. Yeah. I'm one of those people that thinks that it's probably safe in my life. Yeah. Because I was becoming so depressed and I'm sure that the hormones, the changing of the hormones had a lot to do with that, but I was becoming really unhinged, so depressed and manic too.

[00:19:42] Sondra Primeaux: And also just really risky behavior. It just got more and more risky, the driving and the, all of that, just super risky. You can only. Lie about the consequences for so

[00:19:57] Lori Massicot: long. Yeah. [00:20:00] I'm happy for you. I really am. I was watching on Instagram this morning, Jamie Lee was talking about her sobriety. I don't know.

[00:20:06] Lori Massicot: It just came up on my feed as I was scrolling my phone waiting for you to get on. And she was talking about her sobriety will absolutely be her legacy. Part of her legacy. Jamie Lee Curtis? That's number one. Yes. Yes. Jamie Lee. Yeah. That is number one. That is my one of my greatest things that I will leave for my legacy is my sobriety and how important it is and how we have to prioritize that in the beginning.

[00:20:30] Lori Massicot: How are you prioritizing it? What were you doing to help

[00:20:33] Sondra Primeaux: you in the beginning? I think it was I was treating myself like I was. I was that I like I was coming off a long illness. Really, I was basically like nursing myself back to health and I also had a, had and still have a very supportive partner, so I feel super lucky in that way.

[00:20:57] Sondra Primeaux: Had I not, I don't know, that would [00:21:00] have been a lot harder, I think, but yeah, I really just treated myself like I had been sick, like ill for a while. I would just give myself time to journal, time to exercise, time to a hot shower, all these things that time to go to, I'd let myself go to bed super early.

[00:21:27] Sondra Primeaux: All of those things that, that we do when early sobriety, I didn't try to like, I didn't have too many goals in the beginning. I wasn't trying to quit drinking and lose 10 pounds and stop eating sugar and all of that. No, I ate all the sugar. I. Really just focused on the

[00:21:51] Lori Massicot: one thing. Yeah, that's, it's so important as a reminder to all of us in the beginning, like there's really nothing else you need to do.

[00:21:59] Lori Massicot: It's a lot [00:22:00] to do that and to not drink. Every single day. And I feel like in hindsight, definitely that's what I was doing because I came up with that mantra, whatever it takes. And I ate all the sugar too. I baked Betty Crocker cakes and stuff. Like I wasn't a sugar eater before I really stopped drinking because I was getting my sugar from my alcohol.

[00:22:18] Lori Massicot: And it was just like cookies, candy. Anything that I could eat, whatever it takes, like I am working on this now, and this is so important to me, I've got to really protect myself in the beginning, definitely around certain people, definitely certain places, there wasn't a lot of, I was looking at it at the time, maybe as more of I have to sacrifice this kind of stuff, but now, no, I wasn't sacrificing anything, I was really protecting myself, because I know myself, and at that time, I didn't trust myself.

[00:22:53] Lori Massicot: I wasn't somebody that went journaling, exercising. I did a lot of cleaning and organizing in the beginning. I [00:23:00] definitely showers, music, anything like that. That would help me not watching certain things on TV, like the real housewives, cause they are drinking the entire time. Like I couldn't do anything like that.

[00:23:10] Lori Massicot: Yeah.

[00:23:11] Sondra Primeaux: Anything that triggered. An old behavior, yeah, anything that, that was an old behavior trigger, yeah, had to go. I even, I know, I know we're still talking, we're talking a lot still about early sobriety, but I had to. Use a crock pot because I cooked, I drank while I cooked and just that start turning on the oven at five o'clock and reaching for the bottle of wine went together and I was like, Oh, I like tried it once.

[00:23:41] Sondra Primeaux: I was like, Oh, I can't, I can't do this. What my family expects to eat. And that was usually part of my job because I worked from home. And so, yeah, so I started. Loading up a Crock Pot in the mornings with my coffee. [00:24:00] And I had to do that for a while, had to do that for a long time.

[00:24:05] Lori Massicot: I love it. It's such a thing.

[00:24:06] Lori Massicot: And the practicality of that, a lot of us don't think about that kind of step, but we have to. And that's where it gets down to what are those practical things that I can do for myself to help myself out here a little bit. We've got to give ourselves that. That support, and I've had clients do the meal services.

[00:24:22] Lori Massicot: I've had clients do their meal prep and have help with that and put everything in the fridge and everybody's on their own for the week. Clients definitely who will go out more and pick up food, just go to Chipotle or something to get food instead of going to the restaurant or a bar where they would normally go.

[00:24:38] Lori Massicot: It's just that it, we have to change the old things that we used to do in order to make it work. Yeah. Yeah. And the kitchen is a danger zone for many. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:24:48] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, I had a similar mantra as you had, and it was, I would, I was open to try anything. I was open to try anything instead of, as, instead of [00:25:00] going backwards.

[00:25:00] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. And so I would just, nothing was off the table. I would try. I tried everything. And here we are. Hashtag whatever it takes.

[00:25:10] Lori Massicot: What did you do on your one year anniversary of your sobriety? Did you

[00:25:14] Sondra Primeaux: celebrate? We were actually on vacation. We, I live in Texas, I live in Austin and we, for about 12 years, we've missed a couple of summers, but we often go out to West Texas and it's just really beautiful out there.

[00:25:30] Sondra Primeaux: There's mountains, there's desert. We love it. It's like my, it's where my soul wants to go. And I did a really big hike in the mountains by myself and Wow. Yeah, so that's what I did on my sobriety birthday. Took a selfie.

[00:25:48] Lori Massicot: I love it. How did you feel that day? What was the, what were your thoughts? So

[00:25:53] Sondra Primeaux: I was just still in, in a state of shock and awe really [00:26:00] that I had done it, that I had made it an entire year really just.

[00:26:05] Sondra Primeaux: I was the last person that

[00:26:07] Lori Massicot: thought I could do that. I, yeah, I think I was the last person that thought I could do that. There was a shock to it. And then that first year, I think too, it was almost like, should I celebrate this? Is the, but I definitely did only because we were the very date we were at the Del Mar races here in San Diego.

[00:26:27] Lori Massicot: And watch the horse races. The reason that we did that is because Accounting Crew is my favorite band. And if you've listened to the podcast with us, they were playing right outdoors after the race. Like you just walked over and they just like the, one of the, the best concert I ever seen. And that was my story.

[00:26:41] Lori Massicot: I'm never going to be able to see concerts again because I don't drink. It was the very first one and it was, there were no seats. It was all standing. So we got there and I was like, hello, Adam Duritz, right there in front. And. I loved it so much. And while we were there, a girl who was like a [00:27:00] younger version of myself, completely drunk, spilled her entire beer on my feet, on me, on Spencer a little bit, because Spence was with us.

[00:27:09] Lori Massicot: And he was what, 12, 13 at the time. And she kept apologizing. She kept coming back to me, apologizing. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. It's okay. But it was just very weird because the smell of beer was all around me. It was just very strange night. And I just keep thinking like after that, I thought, Why did that happen for me to say it's okay.

[00:27:31] Lori Massicot: And are you okay? I remember saying to her, are you okay? Cause she was, you could tell she'd been day drinking all day long. Oh yeah, for sure. And when we left there, I did tell Spence a little story. I'm like it because he never really remembered seeing me too. Bad, but that I says, that's typically what I would do when I would go out, especially when I was younger and he was just like, Oh no, yeah, in this, you quit drinking.

[00:27:55] Lori Massicot: I

[00:27:55] Sondra Primeaux: had a very similar experience. My first sober concert, same, [00:28:00] very similar experience. People like bumping into me, spilling things on me, just slurring and. And, and ever since, and I've been to many concerts since too, and it happens almost every time. Yes, it is a other, you see a version of yourself every time I would, and, but it also, oh, seeing music live, I'm so glad I didn't have to get that up.

[00:28:25] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah.

[00:28:28] Lori Massicot: Yeah. And when we do the things that we tell ourselves we're not going to be able to do because we don't drink anymore and we do it and we enjoy it so much more, I remembered everything. I didn't have to wake up the next day. I didn't have to hear Bill tell me all the songs. And do you remember when he said that?

[00:28:40] Lori Massicot: Do you remember this? No, I was fully present. And during that concert. And I think it's one of the best gifts that I could have given myself is that opportunity to go and do something that I was telling myself I'm not going to enjoy it because I'm not drinking. And now it's, of course, still my favorite thing because going to [00:29:00] concert is my favorite thing.

[00:29:00] Lori Massicot: Going to see Boy George next week. Boy George.

[00:29:07] Sondra Primeaux: I've been on my 80s tour this year as well, and it has just been so fun. So fun. Yeah. It's, concerts are the best. They really

[00:29:17] Lori Massicot: are. Concerts are the best. Sober concerts are the best too. I have to say it's one of the, like I said, it's one of the greatest gifts. So after that first year, let's talk about relationships because this is one of those things.

[00:29:29] Lori Massicot: That is such a big fear for all of us. Did you notice a difference in your relationships either after you quit drinking or, or more into your sobriety?

[00:29:40] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. Yeah. I went through a thing like similar to what you mentioned where I had to really, really protect myself in situations, no fault to my friends.

[00:29:55] Sondra Primeaux: Like it could carry on. It was me that I needed to protect. [00:30:00] I never went out to try to change anyone's behavior, even though you, like we mentioned about the concerts, you're hyper aware of people's drinking and their behavior, hyper aware. Still am, still I'm very aware, but I had to really protect myself.

[00:30:22] Sondra Primeaux: So that, you know, affected my posse, my relationships with my girls. They were. As supportive as they could be, supportive as they could be, but I didn't have anybody. Well, I'll tell you, I didn't, I knew I was going to have to make new relationships, new sober relationships, because I didn't really have anyone in my original friend group.

[00:30:47] Sondra Primeaux: And I have a, I'm really lucky. I have a group of women and we all live here in Austin and we all went to college together. So we've known each other now for, since we were 19 years old. [00:31:00] And they were as supportive as they could be, but again, I knew that I was going to need to find some sober relationships because I couldn't put all that on them.

[00:31:10] Sondra Primeaux: I didn't have anybody that was telling me, I don't want to pick you up and take you to a movie or. That just didn't happen. Maybe I didn't ask for it, and that's on me as well, but that didn't happen, and that took a while. I spent a lot of time alone in the beginning. I did do 12 step, not at the very beginning.

[00:31:31] Sondra Primeaux: It was after I was about five months over, and I met some women that way, and I spent time with them, some. But I'm going to tell you too, I also needed to spend a lot of time alone. I just needed that. I needed the, again, I needed to keep downloading things and I needed to do that alone. And but yeah, eventually I guess what I discovered was that [00:32:00] relationships are hard and they require work and no matter if it's a new relationship or an old relationship that you've had with someone for 35 years, they still require work.

[00:32:10] Sondra Primeaux: And I. Know that I took a lot of my relationships for green lead and I learned that really from getting sober and it's a reciprocal thing when you get back what you put into them. And I didn't put into them for a long time and I, when I own that now and I'm not so great at it now either, like I, I still have to work on it, especially if I'm feeling lonely or rejected or any of that, I have to really have a come to Jesus with myself and say, okay, what are you doing?

[00:32:47] Sondra Primeaux: To deepen your relationships. And so, yeah, that's, that's probably been one of my biggest work. And we were talking about productivity and working on our [00:33:00] dream careers. And I really have to, that's a balance I'm always trying to seek out too. I know that when I'm, I know that there's sometimes I'm working too much and I'm not taking the time to nurture my relationships.

[00:33:19] Sondra Primeaux: And I have to be observant of it because my tendency is to just put my head down and work because I love what I do, but I know that's not a balanced life. It's just not. And it's not a rich life.

[00:33:35] Lori Massicot: Yeah. I could have said the same thing. I will say the same thing about relationships and how it, I think I wasn't, I was probably taking for granted for years before I stopped drinking and I wasn't putting in the effort.

[00:33:49] Lori Massicot: Um, for many reasons I could say, because I was socially anxious, there was a lot of things that I didn't feel up to attending or I would cancel at the last minute, depending on how I felt, [00:34:00] especially if there was no alcohol involved. But I think definitely it was a fear like I'm going to be left out of things and with people that I'm really close to.

[00:34:10] Lori Massicot: And it's interesting how that has happened. And how I realized that those things that I was fearing being left out of, I don't miss at all. And it's okay. Everybody's going to be okay. But in the beginning, people were on a very need to know basis. And I did find there was some chatter behind my back between me to one friend.

[00:34:34] Lori Massicot: And that was something that was really scary. Part for me to hear why is she doing it? It's like, why you could ask me about it, but I think that people are feel very awkward, especially as being the drinker, the rally girl, the party girl, like I'm drinking, that's what I'm doing. And so to hear that I'm not, it's.

[00:34:54] Lori Massicot: Very awkward to have a conversation and not everybody is okay with change. No, [00:35:00] even the people that we're closest with, I think it's easier to have conversations with people that we're not that close with and that we're meeting for the first time or about ourselves with the people that know us.

[00:35:10] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, because what is an abrupt change for you?

[00:35:13] Sondra Primeaux: You got to give your people some time

[00:35:16] Lori Massicot: with it. Exactly. Yeah. But yeah, there wasn't anybody offering to come and take me to a movie or how are you doing except my husband and my son without those two. Yeah, without those two, I, I can't say enough, even just mentioning their names. I feel like I'm going to start crying, but I think that, yeah, I'm very lucky to have that support and still have that support.

[00:35:37] Lori Massicot: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, relationships change, but we got to remember nobody is worth drinking because of and no situation, no person. It's just not worth the effort that is involved in continuing to drink. We have to do what feels best for us. And I always say, everybody's going to be okay. No matter what, we're all going to be

[00:35:57] Sondra Primeaux: okay.

[00:35:58] Sondra Primeaux: Oh, yes, for sure. [00:36:00] And what's interesting after nine years, for many years after the, I would say year two, three, four, I really wanted to, I wanted to go to the conferences and I wanted to go to like retreats and workshops and things with other sober women. And then after a while of that, I was at a place where it's, yeah, I don't think I need that anymore, or I'm sick of talking about recovery.

[00:36:24] Sondra Primeaux: Like I even went through that phase. I don't know about you, but. I went through about a year or so. It's, uh, I don't want to talk about recovery anymore. Can we talk about anything else, please? And I definitely went through that. But now, Lori, I'm finding that I was just on SheRecovers website looking to see what retreats they have coming up and for 2024, because unless you're in 12 step or unless you work with sober women like you do, but I don't, then you have to seek it out.

[00:36:56] Sondra Primeaux: And it's okay if you're not surrounded [00:37:00] by sober people all the time, I think, but I was just, you have to listen to your heart. And just recently, I think I'm ready again. I think I'm ready to go to a retreat. I want that spiritual connection with other sober women. I do too.

[00:37:17] Lori Massicot: Yeah. Definitely. Let me know which one you're going to do.

[00:37:20] Lori Massicot: Okay. And I'll go too. Cause we did meet each other one time in LA and that was so much fun, but we didn't get to spend a ton of time together, but I think that yes, we have to do that work. We really do. We have to even create those things for ourselves. That's always been on my list to have an in person retreat with other women and to do something like that.

[00:37:36] Lori Massicot: So you never know. Yeah. Oh,

[00:37:39] Sondra Primeaux: sign me up. So, I don't know about you, Lori, but another thing that came up for me when I was Well into my sobriety when I was not fighting the urges every day and I had that wasn't consuming all of my brain power was I and I've said this before like on my podcast [00:38:00] with Tammy but at one point I was Started to just give a shit about savings outside of me again And I was a little activist when I was in college.

[00:38:11] Sondra Primeaux: I was That was during apartheid and I went to all the rallies and I marched for women's rights and things like that. And then being consumed with alcohol is, it can be such a lonely and selfish act. And once I got sober and I got past the point of where I was swimming. And I started wanting to be of service to my community again.

[00:38:42] Sondra Primeaux: And I know that if you're in 12 step, that's baked into the very beginnings of, in the very beginnings. And, but I found I was yearning for opportunities to be of service outside of recovery even. And it just really felt. [00:39:00] I feel like a grown ass,

[00:39:04] Sondra Primeaux: I felt like I, an adult, like I just feel so good to not be the center of everything all the time, right? Not be so gazing at your navel all the time. I like that. And, and I. I started volunteering and I serve on the board of a nonprofit and I still do right now and I've been there for a couple of years and it just feels like, it feels the opposite of being alcohol dependent.

[00:39:46] Sondra Primeaux: It's just the opposite energy where you're feeling generous and you're feeling, you're

[00:39:53] Lori Massicot: giving back. And you said a few years in, right? Yes. Absolutely. I [00:40:00] think every year gives us a new opportunity to see different things. Like, it's a catalyst. I don't think it's a fix all at all. And I always say, sobriety didn't fix my life.

[00:40:09] Lori Massicot: It helped me realize I didn't need fixing. And I, my feelings didn't need to be fixed. Nothing needed to be fixed. I'm human. But... There, it really are so many other doors that open up because our heart starts to open up and, you know, we want to do other things. And really, I think too, as we age, we get to that point in life, what is my purpose?

[00:40:28] Lori Massicot: How can I find more meaning in my life? How can I help other people? And I just feel like aging and sobriety, what does Renee Brown say? It's our superpower is sobriety. Does she

[00:40:38] Sondra Primeaux: say that? I wouldn't be surprised, right?

[00:40:41] Lori Massicot: Yeah. Don't quote me, but. It's true. There's so many more opportunities for us. We're not drinking all the time.

[00:40:48] Lori Massicot: We're not so self involved. And I think it's okay to be self involved, especially in the beginning. I was very self involved. What are people going to think about me? Everybody's going to think I'm a drunk, all of it. And I got, [00:41:00] I worked through that because then I started realizing it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks about me.

[00:41:04] Lori Massicot: It matters what I think about myself. And that takes time to work through. So once we get through that, then yes, there are so many other opportunities to get back and to help and to get. Involved and really find other things that are going to be part of your legacy before you leave this earth.

[00:41:20] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. And you're right.

[00:41:21] Sondra Primeaux: Those things do, I think, align with getting older as well, but, but yeah, it's modeling for your children, like just how to be, how to be a good citizen and be a good community member and be a good neighbor and to just work on the positive. The, the way, the work on solutions, be solution oriented, um, modeling for your kids that every problem has a solution and it doesn't have to be

[00:41:57] Lori Massicot: alcohol.

[00:41:59] Lori Massicot: [00:42:00] Yeah. I think it's so important and that's, I drink for a long time. I drank at Spencer's birthday parties, I drank at holidays, I drank when he was younger. Do I regret that? Absolutely. But I'm so happy. That I did get sober when he was still young enough, especially before he really hit those teen years.

[00:42:16] Lori Massicot: And there's no judgment to anybody who is out there who's a, um, mother or father and feeling like you're beating yourself up because you're drinking around your kids. Get help for that, get support for that. But I think it is our responsibility to, to show them that there's another way to live, that you don't have to go along with society and the normalization of drinking alcohol or anything else.

[00:42:38] Lori Massicot: And just hearing your kids say it. How proud they are of you on your 10 year sober anniversary this morning. It was just like the first thing and it was just so sweet. I can't imagine not hearing those words and it was just, I don't know, part of what makes it all worth it, definitely for me.

[00:42:58] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:42:59] Sondra Primeaux: [00:43:00] Absolutely.

[00:43:01] Lori Massicot: I'm wondering, before we wrap this up, I want to ask you at Nine Years Sober, do you, going back, you had talked about being hyper focused on what other people are drinking and I had that moment where, yes, I hear that from other people, like I'm always like, Aware of what other people are drinking, like even strangers in a restaurant or something like very interesting what she's ordering over there.

[00:43:25] Lori Massicot: Are you, and you said you're still aware of it

[00:43:27] Sondra Primeaux: now? Aware? I wouldn't say that I'm, that I've dropped all judgments around how other people behave in

[00:43:34] Lori Massicot: public. Do you think it's about judgment? Or do you think, this is what I want to ask you.

[00:43:39] Sondra Primeaux: There's judgment with compassion, I think. Yes.

[00:43:42] Lori Massicot: Do you think that...

[00:43:43] Lori Massicot: Knowing more about what alcohol is and what it did to you is what is really driving that. Oh,

[00:43:49] Sondra Primeaux: yeah, absolutely. Don't you just want to go to tell every woman that you see, especially when you see women our age, that are just [00:44:00] still out there stumbling around and misbe or whatever. Um, exhibiting drunk behavior in public.

[00:44:10] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. So you just want to go, honey, there's a better way. There's a better way.

[00:44:15] Lori Massicot: Oh, absolutely. I want to scream it from the rooftops. That's why I started a podcast, honestly, because we don't know. I didn't know. I thought sobriety. Oh my gosh, that's for a certain type of person and I'm not that person, right?

[00:44:28] Lori Massicot: That was what held me back for two years. And so honestly, when I say spreading awareness of it, it's because it's an option and a lot of people, we think that we should know, but we don't know. but I,

[00:44:44] Sondra Primeaux: I would be lying if I. Didn't say that there was a little judgment there, however, it's mostly compassion because they're for the grace of God, right?

[00:44:54] Lori Massicot: Yeah, yeah, it's like the the tally in my head. Do you think about drinking today? [00:45:00]

[00:45:01] Sondra Primeaux: No, no, I have drinking dreams. In fact, I had one last night. I have them interesting, huh?

[00:45:08] Sondra Primeaux: yeah, I have them and When I wake up And I realized, Oh, that was interesting. Drinking drink. Usually that invites me to look and see what else is going on in my life. Is Sarah Lake. It's usually anxiety over something, and I, they don't rock me to my core or anything like that, like they've done before. I just, I'm curious.

[00:45:33] Sondra Primeaux: I just look at them with curiosity now. Oh, I know what that's all about. But, and I would say nine times out of 10, it's anxiety or it's, I'm trying something new and I'm anxious about it. It had been about recording this podcast because it's been a while since I've recorded a podcast and I'm probably a little bit nervous.

[00:45:55] Sondra Primeaux: So maybe that was it. But yeah, I wouldn't say that [00:46:00] I think about drinking much at all. I, I don't like, I'm trying to think of the last time I know there was a last time I probably wrote about it on my blog, um, but it's not even coming to me because really it's so instantaneous and it's, and it's something that I don't dwell on for very long because it's so easy.

[00:46:22] Sondra Primeaux: Like we always say to play the tape forward. I know exactly. Uh, what it would be like, how it would feel, I know the script, that script is

[00:46:31] Lori Massicot: written. You think that's one of the reasons or one of the tools that you've used in continuing on with long term sobriety, playing the tape forward, not BS ing yourself?

[00:46:45] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, absolutely. I know for a fact that I would be off to the races. It would not be one delicious cocktail and done.

[00:46:58] Lori Massicot: It wouldn't be. [00:47:00] It would be one set for me and I'd be off to the races. That would be all of it. That's all it takes.

[00:47:05] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. No, I would totally, I would be off, I would be, it would be over. One was never enjoyable anyway.

[00:47:15] Lori Massicot: So. No, who wants one? When you went into this, did you have that forever mindset? This is going to be forever. This is written in stone.

[00:47:23] Sondra Primeaux: No, I've talked about this quite a bit, but yeah, no, I really had in my journal, I called it my midlife solution. I was going to give myself one year and, and I was going to commit to one year.

[00:47:42] Sondra Primeaux: And if I got to that end of that year. And my life had not improved in any sort of way, then I was going to allow myself to just go right on back to drinking. But, of course, guess what happened? Like you said, about 90 days in, about 90 days in, I [00:48:00] went, Oh. Okay. I already feel better. Things are already getting better.

[00:48:08] Sondra Primeaux: My relationship with my husband's already better. My relationship with my children is already better. The immediate people around me under this roof, all of those things were already better. So I couldn't deny it. Again, you can't uncheck the box.

[00:48:24] Lori Massicot: You can't uncheck the box. Did you feel you were worthy of all of the goodness that you were experiencing?

[00:48:31] Sondra Primeaux: I think some women have the worthy issues. Those things are faked in more to some personalities than others. Worthiness hasn't always been my sticking point for better or for worse sometimes. I wouldn't say that was the language I would have used, I, it was more like, I still had the regrets stayed with me for a while.

[00:48:58] Sondra Primeaux: I knew that it [00:49:00] wasn't too late for me going forward, I could do better that day than I did the day before. And... But it took me a long time to let go of the regrets, mostly of, again, like we talked about in the beginning of the time that I felt like I had squandered away.

[00:49:20] Lori Massicot: Yeah, I get that. I think that self worth has always been an issue for me.

[00:49:27] Lori Massicot: Like I'm not worthy of this, this is, maybe it's too good to be true. I would write in my journal, is this a fluke? And then it would be very much like, I want to stay here. I had a good day. I didn't think about it. I want this to be forever. This has to be forever. And yeah, that's been a process. The whole worthiness aspect of it all.

[00:49:45] Lori Massicot: I remember interviewing Meadow DeVore last year about her book and the self worth project, I think. Right. The Worthy Project. The Worthy Project. And I did some of the exercises in there. Wow, you still need some work there, sister. [00:50:00] But I think it's great when we learn that kind of stuff about ourselves.

[00:50:03] Lori Massicot: And I, I believe that we are all worthy of the life that we want to live. We're all worthy of not living the life that we think that we should be living. Or that because other people are doing something like drinking alcohol, that it's okay for us.

[00:50:16] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah, I think I heard, uh, probably on an On Being podcast, which is, I binged the On Being podcast with Kristen Tippett.

[00:50:26] Sondra Primeaux: This was before I found Sobriety Podcast. But I would listen to them nonstop on my walks. And I think in the very beginning, I, in fact, I wrote it in my journal. Somebody said something to the effect of, if you're here, you're human and you are worthy, just you are worthy just by being here enough, end of sentence and period.

[00:50:49] Sondra Primeaux: Yeah. And, and I really, I embodied that right away. I really did. It, that felt right to me. I was [00:51:00] This is gonna get in the weeds a little bit, but I was raised in an evangelical church and it, it just reminded me of things I was told that ever since I was a little girl that I was loved. I was loved, even if I didn't, if it wasn't reflected back to me from people, I was still loved by God or by the universe.

[00:51:26] Sondra Primeaux: So that was a, that was an easy one for me, actually, and I wouldn't say easy, but it felt right. It felt natural, organic. Yeah, I

[00:51:33] Lori Massicot: like that. I want to ask you, what would you say to Sandra on day one

[00:51:39] Sondra Primeaux: today? I would say it's going to be hard, but it's going to be worth it.

[00:51:52] Sondra Primeaux: I think I would say something

[00:51:53] Lori Massicot: along the lines of that. I would say give yourself time for sure. Be patient. [00:52:00] Don't try to rush it because it's not going to happen. If you think it's going to happen overnight. No, it's not something along those lines. And then I give her a big hug. Yeah. A big hug. You're going to be okay.

[00:52:13] Lori Massicot: You're going to be okay. What are you doing

[00:52:16] Sondra Primeaux: today? It's

[00:52:19] Lori Massicot: Betty Crocker gate. Do it. What are you doing today, do you feel, to manage your alcohol free lifestyle and to manage your menopause? Is there anything you would like to share with us, some tips?

[00:52:30] Sondra Primeaux: Oh, let's see. I am post menopause, first of all, just to get the biology part out of the way.

[00:52:38] Sondra Primeaux: And I manage that really, if we're just getting into practical terms. I get up super early every morning, about five o'clock. I say a little prayer, I have some coffee, I read in the quiet house, I meditate for about [00:53:00] 20 minutes, do some journaling, and I go get some exercise. Those are just boring things that I do, but I do them every morning.

[00:53:14] Sondra Primeaux: If I, if there's any, if I can blame any sort of structure in my day on my sobriety, it would just be, that's it. Those things set me up. They just set me up for a good day. Sleep is super important to me. I will do just about anything to have a good night's sleep. So, uh, recently I discovered sleeping masks.

[00:53:39] Sondra Primeaux: I'd never used them before, and it changed my world. So I put that little thing on, and it's blackout, lights out, night.

[00:53:53] Lori Massicot: I love My silk sleeping mask, my earplugs, my husband and my [00:54:00] fan on full speed, like high speed. I will do whatever it takes to sleep well as well. And I think it's so important what you're saying.

[00:54:09] Lori Massicot: It's the simplicity of how you start your day that matters and how you stay alcohol free all day long. Honestly, it has to be that acknowledgement at least like you matter. You need to sit down and take some time for yourself before you start doing for other people. And I know for me, when I go into a first session with someone, it's basically like running down their day.

[00:54:29] Lori Massicot: And a lot of women are skipping that part. You have to be at like 5 a. m. It just sometime before you start your day, you've got to acknowledge yourself and take care of yourself and what you just listed. It may sound like a ton, it would have to me back when I first started, but it's really not when you get in the habit of doing it.

[00:54:49] Lori Massicot: So just that one small thing I think that you can do for yourself in the morning, even not even, but having your coffee and having some quiet time by yourself and maybe reflecting on [00:55:00] any

[00:55:00] Sondra Primeaux: amount of quiet time where you can do some internal landscape down investigation. Curiosity, like any reflection, any gratitude, any, but you have to, and it might mean that you have to get up 20 minutes earlier.

[00:55:24] Sondra Primeaux: But I think it's, I honestly think it's essential.

[00:55:29] Lori Massicot: It's essential. It's the, it's not a sacrifice once you start doing it. Cause 20 minutes earlier may seem like a lot to a lot of people. Um, but man, you're going to start enjoying it if you're not doing it. Cause I think it's, when I go to sleep at night, I cannot wait to get up at 4 30.

[00:55:46] Lori Massicot: And have that time to myself, have my coffee. I take time to get ready. Um, even if I'm going to the gym, I still like most days I go to the gym. I am still putting on a little something cause I don't want to scare anybody. And I'm doing a little something for myself [00:56:00] in the bathroom. Of course I brush my teeth, but you know what?

[00:56:02] Lori Massicot: It's like that time for me. Maybe I'll put on some soft music. Maybe I'll just do a meditation or something. Most of the time it's quiet time and it's just my time to get focused. Like even this morning when I woke up, my first thought was, holy shit, you're 10 years sober today. I wasn't, I got into the bathroom.

[00:56:20] Lori Massicot: It's like. I was awake and I started thinking of you because I run down my day. Who am I gonna see today? 'cause I typically have calls, and then I'm like, oh my God, Laurie, you pretend you're sober today. And then the feeling started, the tears just immediately welled up in my eyes. And I just stood there for a moment and just like reflecting on myself and how I was feeling and all of it.

[00:56:41] Lori Massicot: And um, I never used to do that kind of stuff before. No way.

[00:56:46] Sondra Primeaux: Oh my gosh, no, I just wanted the day to go away and yeah, I just wanted the day to go away. Can we fast forward this day

[00:56:56] Lori Massicot: to Can we fast forward the day, definitely. And I think it's just [00:57:00] a good reminder for us all, if you want to be alcohol free all day long, take that time to add some structure and a foundation to your day in the morning.

[00:57:09] Lori Massicot: Just by doing the simplest of thing. It was just like, even just checking in with yourself. Like, what day is it? How do I feel today? What do I need today? What do I need less of? What do I need more of today? Like anything that we can do for ourselves there. It's just self compassionate. You were saying about community and being around other people.

[00:57:26] Lori Massicot: It's so important. It's so important. All those

[00:57:28] Sondra Primeaux: things are super important to you. I would say those are second tier of importance. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:57:35] Lori Massicot: And if you can find it on Instagram, go follow Sandra because she's on Instagram and she's always doing fun stuff. Talk about what you are doing right now with your

[00:57:43] Sondra Primeaux: business.

[00:57:44] Sondra Primeaux: Let's see. I am doing a small pivot in my business. So I've. I'm a creative entrepreneur and I have been a photographer and also a upcycle, recycle, [00:58:00] designer, seamstress. I've been doing both things for gosh, almost 25 years. Never could make a career out of either of them until I got sober. And I would say the pivots I'm doing now is I'm really focusing on working with women over 40.

[00:58:17] Sondra Primeaux: In photography, first term, you would call it personal branding. So I'm just helping women with images. Helping women in supporting their creative career or their transition, their pivot, their emptiness, or now I'm going to do this, their side hustle, whatever I've in historically, I've photographed everything from weddings to food, to fashion, to seniors.

[00:58:47] Sondra Primeaux: But I'm putting all my photography eggs in one basket. So this is a new thing for me and I'm letting my design support that. So I'm basically going to [00:59:00] start offering like a client's wardrobe. Like if a client shows up and they don't quite have the perfect dress or. The perfect thing that's going to make them feel comfortable and beautiful.

[00:59:15] Sondra Primeaux: My client wardrobe is going to be there to support that. And then I'm also, I've also been a writer for a while. I probably haven't only called myself a writer for the past, I don't know, six or seven years, but I've written words since I was very small. And I'm starting a sub stack, I actually just got solidified the domain of the sub stack today that I've been doing an in person writing workshop with my friend and mentor Spike Gillespie for years, and I have thousands and thousands of words towards a memoir, and I If I was going to wait around to write the proposal and find an agent, I don't think [01:00:00] I'd ever do it.

[01:00:00] Sondra Primeaux: So this is how I'm doing it. It's basically my accountability exercise and just a way for me to just put it out there. Just I publish it every week. And so it's going to be, it is called special, the memoir dot sub stack, but all of that, all of this links and everything will be. Easily contained on my website, theunruffled.

[01:00:27] Sondra Primeaux: com.

[01:00:28] Lori Massicot: I'll put everything in the description. Describe or explain what Substack is.

[01:00:33] Sondra Primeaux: Substack is a, basically it's like a newsletter. Which I already send out a newsletter every week, but the newsletter that I've sent out every week for years has always been about creativity and process and recovery and mid being in midlife, and I'm going to continue to send that out because, and I'm not.

[01:00:57] Sondra Primeaux: I'm not forcing, I'm not moving a list over, [01:01:00] forcing anyone to move over to this new thing. Sub, so SubStack is also a newsletter, but I'm, this is really just going to be my memoir. That's really the difference. You can also provide extra little goodies like photos and audio and video and things like that.

[01:01:18] Sondra Primeaux: So it's got more features and capabilities than just your average

[01:01:23] Lori Massicot: newsletter. That's awesome. I can't wait for that. When are you putting it out?

[01:01:29] Sondra Primeaux: As well, it will be out and proud when this podcast is published. So, yeah. All

[01:01:37] Lori Massicot: right. So we'll have it in the show notes to go and check out and definitely follow Sandra on Instagram.

[01:01:44] Sondra Primeaux: Yes. Sandra at Sandra underscore unruffled. Oh,

[01:01:49] Lori Massicot: this has been so much fun. Any words that you want to lead the listener with anybody who is out there who's. Maybe reached beyond that first year of sobriety, words of encouragement and [01:02:00] hope. Uh,

[01:02:02] Sondra Primeaux: yes, I, somebody that's reached the first year, I would probably go back to those mantras that we were talking about of something, if you wake up and you find whatever you're doing is not working, do not be afraid to try something else.

[01:02:18] Sondra Primeaux: If you've been doing 12 step and you're, you don't think it's working for you, try an online community. If you have never done 12 step and you're wondering what that would be like, give it a try. If you think you would benefit from hiring a coach, seek one out. If you just want to have coffee with another sober woman, but you're afraid because you don't use, exchange numbers with someone, but you are intimidated about reaching out because you think you'll feel awkward, you will, and she will too, but it's okay, reach out, it's so worth it, just Be willing to try [01:03:00] anything to maintain your sobriety.

[01:03:03] Lori Massicot: Yeah. It's so important. It, we have to remember, like, if something's not working, we don't have to go back to drinking. We got to mix it up. We got to change it up. And. It's so difficult, I know, as we get older, as well, to face this, right, and there is so much shame in the stereotype that is around somebody who no longer drinks, even if that person isn't considered somebody who has a problem, and I'm using air quotes.

[01:03:27] Lori Massicot: It's just like that messaging, if you don't drink, something's got to be wrong with you. So we have to get past that old. Story and that old vision that we have and know that there's so many women out there who feel the same way as us and who are experiencing the same feelings of embarrassment or shame or just complete fear in joining anything, especially meeting somebody in person or talking about how they feel.

[01:03:51] Lori Massicot: But that's how we change it. That's how we change it. Yes,

[01:03:55] Sondra Primeaux: because I promise you that other person has had those [01:04:00] exact feelings. You haven't done anything worse. You have, you don't have any greater shame than the person that the other person does.

[01:04:12] Lori Massicot: Yeah. Once we release it all and start talking about it, man, it's just like the weight comes off of you.

[01:04:19] Lori Massicot: You start enjoying living life again. Absolutely.

[01:04:24] Sondra Primeaux: Thank you, Sandra. Thank you, Lori. This was really great. I don't know if I co hosted the right way, but it was really wonderful. Thank you,

[01:04:36] Lori Massicot: too. I love you.

[01:04:37] Sondra Primeaux: You're so sweet. I just love talking to you.

[01:04:42] Lori Massicot: Honestly, we're still recording. This has been going on an hour and a half since we've been together. And again, it's like this morning. This is a great way to spend my morning with Sandra. I love

[01:04:52] Sondra Primeaux: it. Thank you. Thank you. And happy ordinate years.

[01:04:57] Lori Massicot: Thank you so much. Thank you again for [01:05:00] listening today. Go and check out Sondra Substack. It is linked in the show notes. Also, her article that we talked about on nine years of sobriety, the Unruffled podcast, you will find everything there. Again, if you are searching for a community and you want that guidance and support, especially throughout the end of the year, go and check out Team Alcohol Free.

[01:05:18] Lori Massicot: It is there for you to join until November 11th. And I will be back next week with a wonderful episode with my friend, Amy Connell, who is here joining me as a co host to talk about managing stress during the holiday. So many holiday episodes coming up. It's the time of year. I will see you next week, my friend, take care of yourself.

[01:05:36] Lori Massicot: Peace.